Anthony Bandiero, Attorney and Senior Legal Instructor, Blue to Gold Law Enforcement Training

A roadside chat answering a question from an officer in Utah. He is seeing a lot of videos of citizens getting removed from city council and school board meetings, and he wants to know where the line is.

All right, the question an officer from Utah asks two things. When does a citizen’s speech at a public meeting stop being protected and start being a disruption? And if the mayor or the chairperson tells him to remove a speaker, well, can he do it?

All right, to the facts. So, the officer is seeing a lot of videos. You know, a man stands up at a city council or a school board meeting and rips into the board. The chair calls police, wants him escorted out or trespassed. Sometimes the only reason is that the board didn’t like what he said.

Can a city council cut off a speaker for criticizing them?

Let’s talk about the law. So, here’s the big idea. When a government body lets the public speak, it cannot play favorites.

It can’t let one man praise them, love them, you’re the best elected officials, and cut the other off because they’re criticizing the person. That rule is City of Madison Joint School District v. Wisconsin Employment Relations Commission, 1976.

But they can run an orderly meeting. They can set a time limit, make people sign up, make them take turns, and keep them on topic. And I think that last part is very important. The 10th Circuit, which covers Utah, said a 3-minute time limit was fine. That’s Shero v. City of Grove. The rules just have to apply to everybody the same way.

What the board cannot do is treat “you’re making us look bad” as a disruption. In a case called Ison, it’s a 6th Circuit case, they threw out a board policy banning abusive or antagonistic speech. Absolutely, because it punished people for offending the board.

Now, when a court asks whether a man disrupted a meeting, it wants real disruption, not hurt feelings.

What does Utah’s disorderly conduct statute say about official meetings?

Now, Utah has two statutes, because this is where the officer is at. One is disorderly conduct, that’s 76-9-102. It covers, and I quote, an official meeting, and that includes city councils and school boards.

Two ways it applies here. One, it says refuses to comply with the lawful order of a law enforcement officer to move from a public place or an official meeting. Okay, so you got that. Two, it makes unreasonable noises in a public place or an official meeting while intending to cause annoyance or alarm. Keep that in mind, the intention part.

Now, look at the penalties, because this is the part that officers miss. A violation is just an infraction. It only becomes a Class C misdemeanor if, and I quote, the violation occurs after the actor has been asked to cease. So, if they have not been asked, there is no misdemeanor.

Read that again. In Utah, no warning means no misdemeanor. The legislature put your warning right into the statute.

What is disrupting a meeting under Utah 76-9-103?

So, disrupting a meeting, 76-9-103. That’s the Class B misdemeanor. Two elements. He has to obstruct or interfere with the meeting and, importantly, he has to intend to disrupt it.

A man who makes the board uncomfortable is not a man who is intending to shut down the meeting. So, free speech cannot be penalized here.

How should officers handle a disruptive speaker at a council meeting?

Now, let’s apply it. First of all, slow down and listen for the actual rule. Okay, is he over time? Off topic? Talking over the chair? Refusing to step away from the podium? Or is he just accusing officials of wrongdoing and making them mad?

Watch him yourself. Don’t take the chairman’s word for it. If you’re not on scene, you’re going to have to investigate. You need facts. Was a clear instruction given? Right? He heard it, he kept going, and the meeting couldn’t move on. That is going to be covered by the law.

Then give your warning. “Your time is up, sir. Step away from the podium.” Simple. Now you’ve satisfied 76-9-102.

Now, if he leaves, then you’re done. Right? He may still be angry and rude. Annoying is not disrupting. But if he keeps interfering after the warning, walking him out is reasonable. The goal is to get the meeting moving again, nothing more.

Does escorting someone out of a meeting mean they committed a crime?

There is one big misunderstanding, and here’s the question that I get a lot of times when I teach this. It goes like this. “If I escorted him out, doesn’t that prove he broke the law? Otherwise, how could I kick him out?”

Not really, and this is the most important thing in this chat. Walking a man out is not the same as charging him with a crime. They’re two different things.

Think about a restaurant. The manager can tell a loud customer to leave. That doesn’t mean the customer committed a crime. It just means he has to go. It’s actually the same with these council meetings. The board runs the meeting. It can enforce its own rules that are content neutral. Enforcing a rule is not a criminal finding.

Utah’s own statutes prove it. Section 76-9-103 says he has to intend to disrupt the meeting. There has to be proof of that. A man who runs long and won’t sit down has interfered, but you still have to prove he meant to shut the meeting down. Probably not that hard, quite frankly. And 76-9-102 keeps it an infraction until somebody asks him to stop.

They’re related, obviously, 102 and 103, but the legislative gap is between “this man has to leave” versus “this man committed a crime.” The gap has to do really with the purpose.

And most of these calls end in that gap, right? The chair says, “Time’s up.” You walk over, he leaves. No citation, no arrest. That’s a win. Don’t go hunting for a charge just to justify the escort. In fact, a lot of times these cases get a little more high profile.

Can refusing to leave a public meeting be a crime?

Now, there is one exception and it’s real. It’s under 76-9-102 subsection 2. Refusing your lawful order to leave the meeting is itself the violation. So, you tell him to go and he refuses, that refusal can be a crime.

But know these two things. The crime is the refusal, not the speech. And your order has to be lawful. Which drags you right back into whether or not you’re enforcing a content-neutral rule or just clearing out a critic.

Okay? So, here’s why the backwards version is dangerous. If getting escorted out automatically meant a crime, then any board could manufacture a crime just by ordering the removal. It doesn’t work that way.

Can police detain or trespass the speaker once he is outside?

All right, one more thing. Once he’s outside, know what you’re doing. Removing him is one thing, detaining him is another. If he isn’t free to leave while you investigate, that’s a seizure and you need articulable facts under Terry.

And if the chair says, “Trespass him,” ask what conduct supports that. Absolutely. “The chair told me to” is not, you know, a legal basis, right? That order doesn’t erase the First Amendment, and the chair won’t be the one sitting in the deposition.

The short version

  • When a government body lets the public speak, it cannot play favorites.
  • They can run an orderly meeting. They can set a time limit, make people sign up, make them take turns, and keep them on topic.
  • When a court asks whether a man disrupted a meeting, it wants real disruption, not hurt feelings.
  • In Utah, no warning means no misdemeanor. The legislature put your warning right into the statute.
  • A man who makes the board uncomfortable is not a man who is intending to shut down the meeting.
  • Walking a man out is not the same as charging him with a crime.
  • The crime is the refusal, not the speech. And your order has to be lawful.
  • “The chair told me to” is not a legal basis.

I hope this roadside chat helped you get the law right every single time. It’s a good discussion, a little complicated discussion. Certainly check your own state laws. Until next time, my friends, stay safe.

Related from Blue to Gold

This article is a lightly edited transcript of a Blue to Gold roadside chat and is for training purposes only. It is not legal advice. Check your own state law and your prosecutor before acting. Source video: EP#1064